Playboy interview: Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico
----------
The controversial governor of New Mexico discusses his
drug-legalization proposals, term limits, gun rights and
his pride in being called a libertarian. (12/11/00)

from - http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00/n1854/a07.html

PLAYBOY INTERVIEW: GARY JOHNSON (BACKGROUND INFO ON GARY)

A Candid Conversation With New Mexico's Fearless Governor About His
Crusade To Legalize
Drugs, His Killer Workout Regimen And The Upside Of Carrying A
Concealed Weapon

It is a raging-hot morning in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and the dusty
air carries the smell of
smoke. The eerie orange sky and the pungent odor are reminders of the
wildfire that is
scorching tens of thousands of acres of nearby forest. Governor Gary
Johnson, who has
declared a state of emergency, hasn't had much sleep for weeks, and
now the fire is burning
through the Santa Fe National Forest toward a watershed that provides
drinking water for the
city of Las Vegas, New Mexico. Johnson plans a helicopter flyover of
the fire this afternoon.

Johnson is used to dealing with hot issues. In fact, he gained
national prominence as the
country's highest ranking elected official to propose the legalization
of drugs.

A few months into his second term last summer, 47-year-old Johnson
told his state's GOP
leadership that he was going public with his controversial position.
First he called the nation's
war on drugs an unmitigated failure. Next he announced that
legalizing marijuana and heroin
was the only sane response to an out-of-control problem.

Predictably, Johnson brought on the wrath of critics in and out of his
party. His public safety
secretary and three members of his anti-drug task force resigned. One
prominent law
enforcement official said, "I consider it a slap in the face." Johnson
was called "an idiot," and
yet another official suggested that Johnson check into a mental
hospital. Barry McCaffrey,
President Clinton's drug czar, dismissed Johnson as "Puff Daddy
Johnson" and said, "I'm
embarrassed to have a public servant take this line of argument."
Johnson's own party
considers him an embarrassment.

When the governor's constituents heard his stand on drugs, his
approval rating dropped 11
points. But the dip was temporary. It is now up again, though much
of the leap is attributed
to Johnson's generally admired performance during the New Mexico
fires. And while his
critics have been vocal, he also has many supporters. Ethan
Nadelmann, director of a New
York drug policy think tank funded by George Soros, believes Johnson
is a hero because he
has basically said, "OK, I forgo any political future because I
believe in this issue." Letters to
New Mexico's largest newspaper, the Albuquerque Journal, ran four to
one in support of
Governor Johnson.

Johnson is hardly a traditional politician. He was born in Minot,
North Dakota, where his
father was a public school teacher and his mother worked for the
Bureau of Indian Affairs.
The family moved to New Mexico when he was a teenager, and after high
school Johnson
enrolled at the University of New Mexico, where he majored in
political science and met his
future wife, Dee (they now have two children). After graduating,
Johnson worked as a
handyman before starting his own construction company, Big J
Enterprises. One project, the
expansion of a huge Intel plant, put the company's revenues at $38
million.

In 1994, Johnson entered politics, taking on the incumbent governor in
the traditionally
Democratic state. He used half a million dollars of his own money to
win his first term in
office. In 1998, he won his reelection bid by an overwhelming margin.
(Term limits in New
Mexico prohibit him from running for a third term, and he has said
that he has no other
political aspirations.)

As governor, Johnson has worked to improve conditions in New Mexico,
particularly the
state's battered education system and its economy (one of the nation's
worst). Critics of his
performance point out that he has vetoed more bills than any other
governor of New
Mexico--more than 500. Among supporters, he gets high marks for
improving the state's
economy, its health care and education systems, and for refusing to
sign increases in state
taxes passed by the legislature.

During his college days, Johnson tried cocaine and smoked lots of pot,
but he has since given
up drugs and alcohol. Now he doesn't even eat sugar. In fact, he's
up each morning by five to
jog, ride his bike, swim or work out at the gym. He has competed in
three Ironman
competitions--each involving a 2.4 mile swim, a 12-mile bike ride and
a marathon
run--finishing at or near the top of his age group. He once ran 100
miles in 30 hours in the
Colorado Rockies and on two other occasions ran 25 miles in Army boots
and military
fatigues, carrying a 35-pound backpack through the White Sands Missile
Range to
commemorate the Bataan Death March of World War II.

As fires were still raging in New Mexico, PLAYBOY sent Contributing
Editor David Sheff to
meet with Johnson. Here's Sheff's report:

PLAYBOY INTERVIEW: GARY JOHNSON (INTERVIEW STARTS)

As fires were still raging in New Mexico, PLAYBOY sent Contributing
Editor David Sheff to
meet with Johnson. Here's Sheff's report:

"Johnson's workout regimen is intense-the morning we met, he had
already run a dozen miles
and had been to the gym. He says it helps him cope with the enormous
stress of being
governor. Johnson seemed focused and efficient. Leaving a political
rally, in the morning, he
was ganged up on by television reporters, his cell phone rang with
reports from the center of
the fire-fighting operation, and assistants vied for his attention
with constant new crises.
Through it all, Johnson's eyes gleamed. It made me wonder if he'll be
able to retire from
politics as he claims. 'I will,' he insisted. 'There's not a doubt
in my mind.' But he wouldn't be
the first politician to back down from such a promise.

"Unusual for any politician, Johnson never seemed evasive and never
declined to answer a
question directly. He enjoyed sparring, even over tough issues, and
was still talking as a staff
member dragged him away. A helicopter was waiting to fly him to the
fires."

PLAYBOY: Of all the issues, why this crusade for the legalization of
drugs?

JOHNSON: It is the biggest issue in the country, and it's not being
addressed.

PLAYBOY: It is supposedly being addressed by the long-fought war on
drugs under drug czar
Barry McCaffrey.

JOHNSON: The war on drugs is a mindboggling failure.

PLAYBOY: According to whom? Some statistics suggest that drug use is
down.

JOHNSON: That's absolute baloney. I just don't buy it. In one survey
people were asked if
they did drugs. First, they were asked in the Seventies. I can
imagine people responding,
"Well, sure, doesn't everybody?" Today, they would likely say "No way"
before hanging up.
It's a different time. But if we have reduced drug use by half--some
claim it has gone down
from 26 million to 13 million users--where are the corresponding
dollar savings? We have
gone from spending 1.8 billion federal dollars to spending 30-plus
billion federal dollars. As
we approach zero users, are we going to be at $400 billion? Come on.
Among the graduating
class of 2000, more than half of the students admitted that they used
drugs, which means the
number is probably higher. Where is the decline? We spend $30 billion
to $40 billion a
year--plus the cost of incarceration--and haven't dented the problem.
Drugs remain a
$200-billion-a-year business. For the billions we spend, only 5 to 15
percent of the drugs
entering the country are seized. Does that sound like success to you?

PLAYBOY: Your many opponents, including the Albuquerque district
attorney, believe that
legalization would exacerbate the problem. First, they say more
people would do drugs if they
were legal.

JOHNSON: Kids who have been surveyed say it's easier to get illegal
drugs than beer. They
say prescription drugs are less available than illegal drugs. The
evidence shows that more
people won't do drugs if they're legal. Holland is the only country
in the world that has a
rational drug policy. I had always heard that Holland, where
marijuana is decriminalized and
controlled, had out-of-control drug abuse and crime. But when I
researched it, I learned that's
untrue. It's propaganda. Holland has 60 percent of the drug
use--both hard drugs and
marijuana--the United States has. They have a quarter the crime rate,
a quarter the homicide
rate, a quarter the violent crime rate and a tenth the incarceration
rate. It suggests that more
people don't do drugs because they're legal. But let's just say that
the number of users would
go up. I don't think it would, but if it did I still would say it was
worthwhile. Look at the
trade-off.

PLAYBOY: What trade-off?

JOHNSON: Half of all crime is drug-related. Half. Half of what we
spend on law
enforcement, half of what we spend on the courts and half of what we
spend on prisons is
drug-related. That's billions of dollars that could be spent on
education, on other crimes, on
other issues. If we legalized drugs, we would destroy the environment
that allows and even
encourages all those crimes. We know that prohibition drives a black
market and all sorts of
related crimes. Prohibition sets the stage for criminals, from the
small dealers on the street to
the drug kingpins. If police didn't have to deal with drug-related
crimes, they could fight
other crimes and increase our quality of life. Same with courts and
prisons. We could
educate people about the danger of drugs in a more effective way.
Anyway, I would argue
that some kids do drugs because they're illegal, purely out of
rebellion. I know that it's partly
why I did them. We were told you couldn't do it, so hey.... I am not
alone in this. You see a
sign: WET PAINT. Is it really wet? DON'T OPEN THIS DOOR. I usually
don't, but I want
to. Part of the reason kids get so excited about smoking, drinking
and drugs is because they
are prohibited from doing them.

PLAYBOY: How would the legalization of heroin actually work?

JOHNSON: Only addicts would be allowed to get drugs. They would have
to get a
prescription.

PLAYBOY: But wouldn't there still be a large group of people who use
heroin casually?
Wouldn't there still be a black market?

JOHNSON: Yes, you bet. But it is going to reduce the problem, which
is a start. We have to
look at the other users, too. We should start with the drug addicts
and then explore the
problem posed by the other users. For drug addicts, we should look at
all the tools in the
box. One of the ideas I proposed is that methadone should be
available from drugstores, not
just from clinics. One of the criticisms of methadone clinics is
their clientele. Why don't we
just allow people to go to drugstores and get their methadone with a
prescription? Heroin
maintenance is another idea I proposed. It's a harm-reduction
strategy. Instead of pretending
that drugs are going to go away, we should do everything we can to
minimize the negative
impact of drugs---reduce crime, reduce the number of people
incarcerated for drug use.

PLAYBOY: What's your view on medical marijuana?

JOHNSON: Of course I think it should be allowed.

PLAYBOY: Yet your home state doesn't allow it.

JOHNSON: It's not likely to happen. Now, in particular, there is a
backlash against anything
drug-related in the state. It's a backlash against me.

PLAYBOY: Is your campaign actually hurting your cause?

JOHNSON: Not for a second.

PLAYBOY: But people might feel that something as innocuous as medical
marijuana or a
needle exchange program is just the beginning in their governor's
agenda to legalize every
drug.

JOHNSON: Well, my goal is for a more rational drug policy. There's no
question that I've
moved the needle. I've moved the needle nationally. I've moved it in
the direction it needs to
go. It's a start, but there need to be 3000 other people espousing
the same ideas. These other
programs--needle exchange, medical marijuana--are important, but they
don't address the great
ills caused by prohibition.

PLAYBOY: Meanwhile you vetoed legislation that would have gone toward
drug treatment
services.

JOHNSON: Every year since I have been governor, our state legislature
has overspent an
average of $30 million a year. Without exception, all my vetoes are
about new programs that
we can't pay for. Yes, some good programs fall to my veto pen. But I
won't raise taxes. I've
vetoed more bills since I have been in office than all the other
governors combined-550 or so.
Most of the vetoes have to do with spending money we don't have. I am
a fiscal
conservative. I believe in drug-treatment programs, however. We
should treat drugs as a
health problem, not a crime.

PLAYBOY: You raised the issue of legalization at the Western
Governor's Association
Conference. What was the reaction?

JOHNSON: There was good discussion, which is all I can ask for. The
most significant thing
about all this is that we're talking about drugs and alternative
policies. Legalization is not
around the corner. I realize what a taboo it is. It's political
suicide to push it, but ultimately
the best politics is the truth. There is no question in my mind that
this country is going to
develop rational drug policies. The question is, is it going to take
80 years or is it going to
happen in a more reasonable amount of time?

PLAYBOY: What sort of time frame would you consider to be reasonable?

JOHNSON: Within the next decade. It's possible that things will
change by then.

PLAYBOY.. Do you believe that all drugs should be legal?

JOHNSON: If we legalized all drugs across the board, we would have a
better situation than
we have today. If all illicit drugs were available over the counter,
things would be better. But
that's not what I am advocating. I think that we should start with
certain drugs, based on
existing models. There are models that exist in this world for the
legalization of heroin. There
is a model when it comes to marijuana. There isn't a model for
cocaine, methamphetamines,
LSD and so on. I am not advocating legalization, but I do think we
should look into it.

PLAYBOY: Are you again referring to Holland?

JOHNSON: And Switzerland, where addicts can get prescriptions for
heroin. With a
prescription, an addict can get a fix at a clinic. The cost is a
tenth of what it is on the street,
plus it is a clean product and there are clean needles. As a result,
the crime associated with
those drugs is way down. So is the spread of hepatitis C, AIDS and
other diseases. You don't
have to be involved in a crime to get your next fix, and there isn't a
crime ring providing it.
You don't have to recruit other heroin addicts in order to pay for
your heroin. In New
Mexico, it is estimated that 15,000 heroin addicts get up every
morning with one thing on their
mind: the next fix. There are thousands in every state in the U.S.
They will do whatever is
required. If they need to commit crimes, they will. They will use
drugs that can be lethal.
They will use unclean needles. If we aren't yet ready to legalize
heroin, let's at least reduce the
harm associated with heroin. We can do it through health strategies,
including
heroin-maintenance programs. It's a misconception that drugs are a
huge killer. Relative to
tobacco, they aren't. Tobacco kills about 400,000 people per year.
Alcohol kills about
150,000, and that doesn't include deaths from drinking and driving.
Legal prescription drugs
kill 100,000 people. Cocaine and heroin kill about 3000 people.
Where is the bogeyman? Yet
we are arresting 1.6 million people a year for drugs. Eight hundred
thousand of them are
marijuana users.

PLAYBOY: If cigarettes and alcohol are bigger killers than drugs,
rather than legalizing drugs
one could argue that alcohol and cigarettes should be illegal.

JOHNSON: It doesn't work. Look at Prohibition. We live in America.
We live in a free
society where we are able to make choices. America is about allowing
choice. It's about
giving individuals freedoms and holding them accountable for those
freedoms.

PLAYBOY.' At what point does the government step in, though? Do you
disagree that the
government should regulate cigarette companies and prohibit them from
pushing cigarettes to
children ?

JOHNSON: The government should be involved when it comes to
advertising to children,
yes. There are other times the government needs to regulate. We
would have to wrestle all
this out if we were going to legalize drugs. We would have to learn a
lesson from our
experience with tobacco and alcohol. There needs to be a new set of
laws. I would disallow
advertising for drugs. In fact, I would put money in advertising that
says drugs are a bad
choice. ! would use real, honest advertising. In spite of all the
antismoking ads, the real killer
is tobacco. But I certainly wouldn't outlaw cigarettes. Does a
person have a right to choose
whether or not to smoke? Yes. Does a restaurant owner have the right
to decide whether or
not his establishment should be smoke free? Absolutely. Should the
government decide that
cities should be smoke-free zones? No.

PLAYBOY: When it comes to marijuana, would you settle for
decriminalization rather than
full-blown legalization?

JOHNSON: Decriminalization turns its back on half of the problem.
With decriminalization,
you are going to allow a person to possess and use marijuana, but not
to buy it. In other
words, how are people going to get the pot? They are still going to
get it from illegal dealers
who are buying it from bigger dealers. Decriminalization doesn't deal
with the problems of
street crime and organized crime. It doesn't at all deal with the
drug kingpins. Of course
marijuana use should be decriminalized, but we also have to stop the
illegal activities that
support the industry. Only legalization does that. People don't like
to hear about legalization.
Worse, when they hear about the legalization of heroin, bombs go off.
Whoa! But in none of
the legalization scenarios could a person go to a store and buy
heroin. I am talking about
control, regulation, taxation and safer heroin. Just as we use taxes
from cigarettes for health
programs, we could use taxes on drugs for health programs to deal with
the problems that
exist.

PLAYBOY: Wouldn't there still be an underworld supplying
drugs--cheaper, stronger and
more varieties?

JOHNSON: Initially there would still be black markets, sure. But give
it a little time. Look at
the liquor industry. We don't buy bathtub gin anymore. Why not? Why
buy bathtub gin when
we can get the real thing at a reasonable price? The same would be
true for drugs. Why would
kids who are going to use drugs buy street drugs if they could get
drugs they knew were safe
at a good price? Kids will still buy designer drugs and other drugs on
the black market. It's
why we need to look at the legalization of those, too.

PLAYBOY: Do you dispute the argument that marijuana is the gateway
drug, that it leads to
more serious drugs?

JOHNSON: It's baloney. Marijuana is not a gateway drug. On the other
hand, because of the
black market, it can become a gateway drug. When you go to your
marijuana dealer, if he
happens to be out of marijuana, he may offer other drugs from his box.
He may have some
cocaine and heroin, LSD, designer drugs, etc. If you legalize pot,
you are taking away the
gateway completely.

PLAYBOY: But marijuana may be a gateway drug in a subtler way. When a
person decides to
go against cultural or parental influences to do one drug, why not try
other drugs?

JOHNSON: That leads to the way we misinform about drugs. The
education we try to impart
causes some of the problem. We say that marijuana will destroy your
life. Someone tries it
and it doesn't destroy his life. We say marijuana will make you crazy
and kill your brain cells,
that it will lead you into crime.

PLAYBOY: On the contrary, you have been criticized for telling high
school students that
marijuana is cool.

JOHNSON: You hear you're going to lose your mind and go crazy and even
die if you smoke
marijuana. I said, "You know what? I smoked marijuana, and when I
smoked it, none of
those things happened. In fact, it was kind of cool." You have to
tell the truth. When kids
realize you're lying, they will no longer listen to you. They may
think the stuff you've been
telling them about other drugs isn't true either. So part of a useful
education program about
drugs is honesty. People try pot and they don't go crazy. They don't
get into crime. It doesn't
destroy their lives, necessarily. We have to be honest.

PLAYBOY: Are you saying that marijuana use is completely benign?

JOHNSON: No! Marijuana is a handicap. You do marijuana, you are not
going to be able to
fly that airplane. You are not going to be able to function as a
human being as well as if you
didn't smoke pot.

PLAYBOY: Is that your view after your personal experience?

JOHNSON: Yes. No question. Marijuana is a handicap. It is. Just
like alcohol. I've stopped
both because I have enough handicaps.

PLAYBOY: Do you feel there are any lasting effects of your pot
smoking?

JOHNSON: I don't feel there are any lasting effects at all. Same with
alcohol, although I think
alcohol is a lot more insidious than pot.

PLAYBOY: You once said that at a party you should watch out for the
boy who has been
drinking, but that "the one who's smoked marijuana just wants to put
on a headset and attack a
bag of potato chips."

JOHNSON: It's true. I talk to police officers-the guys on the street.
When they show up to a
house where there has been a call about domestic violence and walk in
on a roomful of people
smoking pot, they know they are at the wrong house. Violent behavior
is not associated with
marijuana.

PLAYBOY: Yet some of the police officers in your home state are your
loudest critics.

JOHNSON: Not the cops on the street. The ones ranting and raving
about me are the bosses,
the guys who have been elected or appointed to their jobs. They are
politicians. Police on the
street know the logic of what I'm saying. They are the ones who have
to deal with the bad
drug laws. They have to make the arrests. They have to walk into
dangerous situations where
there are drug deals going on. They have to arrest kids for selling
drugs, and they are the ones
who see the downhill course life takes from then on. They know these
kids need help, not
jail. I never want to discount the real problems that some people
have with drugs. Some
people can't handle drugs and do become addicted. That's a health
problem and we have to
deal with it.

PLAYBOY: Have your Republican colleagues treated you differently since
you came out for
legalization?

JOHNSON: Yes and no. Initially they thought I was crazy, insane.
Some people still maintain
I'm crazy, but others are saying, "Wait a minute. He's raising some
important issues." I never
expected to change things overnight. The goal was to raise the
issues.

PLAYBOY.. Do you find that some of the personal attacks you have
received have been
disconcerting?

JOHNSON: I recognize the fact that the first one over the hill gets
shot. PLAYBOY: When
you took on this issue, there were resignations on your staff. Did
the defections hurt?

JOHNSON: Those people made their decisions, and history will be the
judge. I feel fine in
that regard.

PLAYBOY: How do you respond to Barry McCaffrey, who calls you Puff
Daddy Johnson?

JOHNSON: I don't take it personally. He has the job. If it weren't
him, it would be somebody
else. At the same time, I don't know how long that antiquated
attitude is going to last.

PLAYBOY: You waited to raise the issue of legalization until your
second term. Would it
have been political suicide to do it before this?

JOHNSON: Maybe, though I was ready to tackle it anytime. I just
wanted to do it wisely and
cautiously. In my first six months in office, I met with my entire
cabinet. I told them that at
some point I would be asked about my view of drugs. I said that I
would answer those
questions like I answer everything else: honestly. The questions
would lead to the fact that I
believe the war on drugs is a failure and that we need to be looking
at alternatives.
Alternatives have to include looking at legalization.

PLAYBOY: Why did you wait to raise the issue?

JOHNSON: I wanted to do all of my homework. When I got elected for my
second term, I
had a meeting with a couple of people, including the head of the
Republican Party in New
Mexico, and said that I would like to make a bold statement about the
war on drugs. I said, I
don't know if legalization is the answer, but it certainly has to be
looked at. They agreed. At
that time, I really had no idea that legalization was the answer--or
that there were such
compelling arguments in favor of legalization. I just said, Let's
declare the war on drugs a
failure and look at alternatives. I believed the rumor that Holland
has drug use and crime
through the roof. Then I began to research it. Whoa! Wait a minute.
I don't need to study
things to death as many politicians tend to. We need to gather the
facts--and there are only so
many of them--and then make a decision. I looked at the facts for
about six weeks and
decided that legalization is a viable alternative. And I said so.

PLAYBOY: Would you have brought up this issue if you planned to run
again for office?

JOHNSON: I don't plan to run again for office.

PLAYBOY: If you did, would you still push to legalize drugs?

JOHNSON: I'm doing it because it needs to be done. It has nothing to
do with my political
plans or the fact that I don't have any. Should the issue be raised?
That's why I'm pushing it.
That said, I've got two and a half more years in office and I can do
whatever I believe in. I
don't have to think about reelection. It's a liberating feeling,
absolutely.

PLAYBOY: Does your experience influence your opinion of term limits?
In other words, do
term limits allow politicians to push for issues they care about
rather than worrying about the
implications for reelection?

JOHNSON: That's absolutely a case for term limits. Politicians
shouldn't spend most of their
time in office trying to get reelected.

PLAYBOY: What happens if you change your mind and decide to run for
office again?

JOHNSON: I won't. No, no, no.

PLAYBOY: Is it because you have had it with politics?

JOHNSON: No. I've enjoyed it. I really have. But from the start, I
looked at this on an
eight-year horizon. I thought, Boy, if I were able to serve for eight
years, wow. It's exactly
what I wanted and now I want to do everything I can before I leave
office. My worst fear is
leaving office and thinking, Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

PLAYBOY: Besides raising this debate about the legalization of drugs,
What do you consider
your most important contributions as governor?

JOHNSON: I believe I've moved the needle on every single issue that
exists in this state. I'm
talking about economic development, lower taxes--there hasn't been a
single tax raise in five
years,: which has never happened before. There are 1200 fewer state
employees today than
when I took office, which means we're running a more efficient: state
government. We're
building twice ! as many four-lane highways in the state and didn't
raise taxes to do it. We're
building a telecommunications infrastructure and prisons, and the
schools are getting better.

PLAYBOY: Yet one survey rated the schools in New Mexico as among the
worst in the
nation. It concluded that New Mexico is the worst state to be a child
in the country.

JOHNSON: Democrats have controlled New Mexico in the legislature for
70 years now. If we
want real change in New Mexico, they are going to have to give the
Republicans a shot. What
gets changed when you bring the Republicans in? You bring in
higher-paying jobs. You do
that because you reduce taxes, which are still too high in New Mexico.
You get a lot more
accountability in the education system.

PLAYBOY: Do you disagree about the low ranking of your state in that
and other surveys?

JOHNSON: I was born in North Dakota and lived in South Dakota for
eight years. I lived in
Minnesota for one year. I moved here when I was 13. North and South
Dakota are always
ranked two of the best places to raise a child in the United States
and New Mexico is always
ranked the worst. But as a child, at 13, I would never have wanted to
go back to North or
South Dakota. In addition, I would never want to raise my kids in
North or South Dakota.
I'm not picking on North or South Dakota, but this statistic about New
Mexico is not fair. We
are a unique place. We've got a large Hispanic population. We have
immigrants from
Mexico. Over 10 percent of our population is Native American. We are
culturally diverse.
But with these populations, at this stage in our history, the
diversity also means very low
wages. We have a rural economy with the exception of the Rio Grande
corridor. Does all that
make it an unattractive place? No. It's a beautiful place, a
wonderful place.

PLAYBOY: As governor of a border state, what is your view of the
immigration issue?

JOHNSON: I don't think Easterners recognize that the Hispanics who
immigrate are great
people, great citizens. They care about their families like other
Americans care about their
families. They're living in poverty in Mexico and can come to the
United States and do a lot
better.

PLAYBOY: By--according to some--taking away jobs.

JOHNSON: They work the lowest-paying jobs, which is a huge step up
from where they come
from. And they are taking jobs that other Americans don't necessarily
want. They're
hardworking people who are taking jobs that others don't want. That's
the reality.

PLAYBOY: Would you open the borders and make it easier to immigrate
legally?

JOHNSON: My vision of the border with Mexico is that a truck from the
United States going
into Mexico and a truck coming from Mexico into the United States will
pass each other at the
border going 60 miles an hour. Yes, we should have open borders. It
will help enormously
with the drug issue, too, by the way. One of the huge raps on Mexico
is that it is a drug
supplier, that it's the drug corridor. But there wouldn't be drugs
coming in illegally from
Mexico if there weren't the demand in the United States. We have a
militarized border with
Mexico, and it's a shame. It doesn't work very well, either. Mexican
mules get paid a king's
ransom to carry marijuana or cocaine across the border, but they are
just mules. If they get
caught, they're the ones who get locked up, not the drug lords. One
out of eight gets caught.
Whoever's paying them south of the border knows that equation and
understands the risk.

PLAYBOY: In California, there was a backlash against illegal
immigrants. Voters passed a
proposition that would have denied them medical and other services.

JOHNSON: It wouldn't be a problem if they were legal, so the process
to make them legal
should be easier.

PLAYBOY: Many Americans fear the flood of immigrants that would
follow.

JOHNSON: Again, they would come over and take jobs that we don't want.
They would
become taxpayers. They're just pursuing dreams---the same dreams we
all have. They work
hard. What's wrong with that?

PLAYBOY: Is that behind your support of Nafta?

JOHNSON: Yes. Nafta has benefited New Mexico. With each passing day,
it's a bigger boom
for New Mexico as a border state.

PLAYBOY: Do you disagree that Nafta has caused the "sucking sound"
Ross Perot warned
of--the sound of U.S. jobs being sucked into Mexico?

JOHNSON: Again, my opinion is that the jobs we're talking about are
those we generally don't
want. What jobs are we saving?

PLAYBOY: Manufacturing jobs.

JOHNSON: There is a shifting, and some companies have relocated to
Mexico. But we've
benefited far more than we have lost. Also, it's still settling.
Intel has a new semiconductor
manufacturing plant in Albuquerque, one of the most sophisticated
plants on the planet. It is
in the U.S. because the workers are qualified and efficient here. If
we're not competitive, we
had better get competitive. We're moving toward a global economy
whether we like it or not.

PLAYBOY: Let's touch on some other issues. Where do you stand on the
matter of gun
control?

JOHNSON: I'm one of those who believe the bumper sticker: If you
outlaw guns, only
outlaws will have guns. The first people who are going to be in line
to turn in their guns are
law-abiding citizens. Criminals are going to be left with guns. I
believe that concealed carry is
a way of reducing gun violence.

PLAYBOY: Do you carry a gun?

JOHNSON: I don't and I don't own a gun, but I'd still just as soon
have the concealed carry
law. If the guy who is going to hold up a car knows there is the
possibility of a concealed
weapon, he may think twice. We don't have that law here.

PLAYBOY: But the statistics show that people don't use guns to stop
crime. They use them to
hurt themselves or innocent people.

JOHNSON: Yeah, but there is deterrence in the legality of guns. It's
also part of the
Constitution.

PLAYBOY. The NRA disagrees with any limits, from the Brady law to
controls of automatic
weapons. Do you?

JOHNSON: I don't believe the laws regarding guns are effective. We're
allowed to bear arms.
It's part of a free society.

PLAYBOY: Where do you stand on abortion rights?

JOHNSON: It should be left up to the woman. If my daughter were
pregnant and she came to
me and asked me what she ought to do, I would advise her to have the
child. But I would not
for a minute pretend that I should make that decision for her or any
other woman.

PLAYBOY: But you have supported legislation that requires parental
consent and signed a ban
on partial birth abortions.

JOHNSON: I think the decision can be made at an earlier stage. That's
why I don't support
partial birth abortions. I realize it's a fine line, but I generally
come down on a woman's right
to decide.

PLAYBOY: Do you disagree that parental consent is problematic for
teenagers who can't talk
to their parents?

JOHNSON: I believe that parents ought to know. Where that can't
occur, there needs to be a
process in place, which we have in New Mexico.

PLAYBOY: What's your view about campaign finance reform?

JOHNSON: If you're talking about reform where you want to do away with
soft money, yeah,
I think that's good. If RJR wants to give me $100,000 for my
campaign, it can't. But it can
give it to the Republican Party and then the Republican Party will
write a check to me. It's not
directly from the cigarette manufacturer and all I have to say is that
I got it from the party. So
I think that should be reformed. The public should know exactly where
every penny comes
from. But I don't think there should be limits on contributions.

PLAYBOY: But big contributions mean the wealthy have much more
political influence than
the middle class or poor.

JOHNSON: My biggest contributor during the last two campaigns gave me
over $150,000.
Not once since I've been elected has he been on the phone to tell me
anything about what I
should do as governor. Is that not better than 150 people giving me a
limit of $1000? Of those
150, there's a good chance that 50 are going to be on the phone trying
to tell me what to do.

PLAYBOY: But you would be far more beholden to the one person who gave
$150,000.

JOHNSON: The problem isn't large contributions. The problem is that
we don't know who
contributed. In New Mexico, there's no limit on what I can receive
from anyone, but I have to
disclose it all--with the exception of soft money. I get a
contribution from the Republican
Party of, say, $200,000 or $300,000. Well, in a lot of cases, that's
from individuals who have
contributed to the national party but earmarked it for me. That needs
reform. If you limit
contributions from an individual to, say, $1000, then I think just the
opposite occurs. Then
you have politicians beholden to way too many people.

PLAYBOY: Why wouldn't you cut both-soft money and large contributions?
Then you could
level the playing field.

JOHNSON: All of the campaign finance reform I have seen would preclude
someone like
myself from ever getting elected. I spent half a million dollars of
my own money to get
elected. I was not going to get involved in politics prior to my
being able to afford to. That
way I wouldn't be indebted to anyone.

PLAYBOY: That's why so many Americans are cynical. Only wealthy
people can run for
office.

JOHNSON: It's a problem, but it's also a misconception. Only money
can beat incumbents. If
you pass campaign reform tomorrow, I'm set for the rest of my life.
I'm the incumbent now.
My name is known. It's all about name familiarity. All money does is
get your name in front
of people. Then it's up to you. What's coming out of your mouth? Is
it making sense or not?
People are smart enough to decide. We had a candidate here for the
Congress last election
cycle who spent nearly $6 million of his own money and didn't get
elected. Money isn't
enough.

PLAYBOY: But you're saying then that only incumbents or rich people
should be able to run.

JOHNSON: For the most part, people who are involved in politics are
not wealthy. For the
most part, people who are involved in politics have worked their way
up through the political
system and become indebted to everyone along the way. Is that better?
That's the reality. I'm
not saying it's right. On the other hand, you have people like me who
come in from nowhere.
I'm indebted to nobody. But campaign finance reform legislation would
have precluded me
from being successful. You wouldn't be doing this interview today.

PLAYBOY: When was the first time you thought about elected office?

JOHNSON: I always believed that politics was a high calling. I was
raised believing that you
could make a difference. I always hoped to be able to have a chance
to make a positive
difference. There are many who would line up to say I haven't done
anything positive, and I
understand that. But that's in my heart, that's my motivation.

PLAYBOY: What kind of child were you?

JOHNSON: I was way too serious. I was an insomniac. I had too many
things on my mind.

PLAYBOY: What were you doing in the middle of the night?

JOHNSON: I just couldn't stop thinking. I couldn't ever stop
thinking. This is the first time
I've admitted it, but I quit being an insomniac when I started smoking
pot. That was one of
the side effects for me.

PLAYBOY: Was it because it helped slow you down?

JOHNSON: Yeah, it did. I haven't had insomnia since then. After I
stopped smoking pot, I
guess my fitness regimen helped. Now I can go to sleep in five
minutes.

PLAYBOY: What brought your family to New Mexico when you were 13?

JOHNSON: My mother got transferred to Albuquerque in 1966, working in
accounting for the
Bureau of Indian Affairs. My father came here unemployed and became a
teacher in the
Albuquerque public schools. He had fallen in love with New Mexico
when he was in the Boy
Scouts. Have you seen Saving Private Ryan? My father was Private
Ryan. That is, he was in
the 101st Airborne Division, jumped into Normandy days before the
invasion, scattered along
with Private Ryan and thousands of others. He was in that group.

PLAYBOY: What did you plan to do for a living?

JOHNSON: I didn't know. I wanted to make money. I started a business
my third year in
college as a handyman, going door to door. Since I turned 17, I have
paid for everything I've
ever had: clothes, transportation, gas, college.

PLAYBOY: Was that a strict principle of your parents, or were they
unable to help you?

JOHNSON: My parents helped. They would loan me money, but I wanted to
pay for myself.
I think it helped me be who I am. I have had a great work ethic. I'm
that 10-year-old with a
paper route. I'm that 12-year-old who came around and would do your
lawn every week.

PLAYBOY: Were you a popular kid? Did you have any girlfriends?

JOHNSON: Yeah. I mean, I was all right. I think people enjoyed being
around me.

PLAYBOY: Did you date a lot?

JOHNSON: I met my wife in college on a skiing trip.

PLAYBOY: You've said you did drugs in college. For some people, drugs
might be a form of
self-medication for depression or other problems. Were they for you
or were they simply
fun?

JOHNSON: Drugs alter a person's consciousness for a little while, and
it's enjoyable. For
most people, that's the reason that they do drugs.

PLAYBOY: And is that what it was for you?

JOHNSON: Oh, yes, yes. It was about altering or expanding my mind.
That's the way I
viewed it. We're talking about 1970. Eventually I decided that drugs
were a handicap, but it
took me a while to arrive at that conclusion. That's when I decided
not to do drugs, not to
drink. Prior to trying pot, I would go out for a few beers. That was
something kids did. I
wasn't unlike a lot of other kids. Then, when I discovered marijuana,
I preferred it because
there were no headaches afterward.

PLAYBOY: What other drugs did you try?

JOHNSON: Cocaine. I quickly came to understand why people get
addicted to cocaine.
Whew. For me personally, it wasn't anything I was going to get
involved with.

PLAYBOY: Because it's seductive?

JOHNSON: I saw danger. It wasn't anything you wanted to be doing.

PLAYBOY: Did you try anything else--psychedelic drugs? Heroin?

JOHNSON: No, but I had a lot of friends who did them. I have friends
who did heroin--I saw
them do heroin--and they never were addicted. They just experimented
with it. So that's
another myth: Everyone who tries heroin becomes an addict.

PLAYBOY: Why do you think you drew the line?

JOHNSON: I saw enough friends try it. They were a little more
handicapped than I was and I
didn't need that.

PLAYBOY: From your personal experience, how can you persuade kids not
to smoke
cigarettes or do drugs?

JOHNSON: You must be absolutely honest with them. You have to tell
them the effects.
They need to know that some people have real problems with drugs.
They should understand
that drugs change your consciousness so that from the time you smoke
until the time you
come off the drug, you are going to be less of a human being. Your
brain isn't going to
function as fast. You have to be as honest as you can and then
recognize that in spite of all
you say, they may still do it.

PLAYBOY: Do you believe that peer pressure is an enormous factor in
kids' trying drugs?

JOHNSON: Yes, although I always hate to say that for the most part
people use drugs
responsibly. It is misunderstood; people think I'm advocating drug
use. I'm not. But it's a
fact: Most people do use drugs responsibly. They choose when and
where to do them. They
can afford to do them. Most people use alcohol responsibly. They do
no harm to anyone
other than themselves. Eighty million Americans have done illegal
drugs, and obviously not
everybody goes crazy and dies or commits crimes. Like it or not, it's
a fact.

PLAYBOY: As a politician, did you worry about admitting that you used
drugs?

JOHNSON: No. I volunteered it to the press before they asked. I did
drugs and wasn't going
to hide it.

PLAYBOY: Did you worry that it could have meant the end of your
political career?

JOHNSON: Absolutely. It was one of my greatest political fears. But
in the same breath, I
had to divulge it.

PLAYBOY: Because?

JOHNSON: Because it is part of who I am. If I was going to be
elected, the people had a right
to know who I was.

PLAYBOY: How did you feel when President Clinton, as a candidate, said
that he smoked pot
but didn't inhale?

JOHNSON: I didn't respect that at all. I knew I had to do much better
than that. I had to be
honest. I hate to say anything flippant regarding this subject, but
I'm not the first to say that if
you came out of the Sixties and Seventies and didn't do drugs, there's
a question about who
you are. But that was a period when the information about the dangers
of drugs didn't exist.
Most of the freethinking people in the culture were trying them. It
was a different time. Now
I try to lead by example. I don't do caffeine, sugar, alcohol,
tobacco or drugs. Don't do them.
I wouldn't be sitting here if I did any of those things.

PLAYBOY: Why not?

JOHNSON: They're a handicap. I just couldn't do what I do; I couldn't
have accomplished
what I've accomplished.

PLAYBOY: But sugar?

JOHNSON: Sugar got in the way of how I felt. I haven't had sugar for
three years. No
Cokes. Not a cookie. Not a candy bar.

PLAYBOY: Was there a specific moment, an epiphany, when you stopped
drugs?

JOHNSON: I stopped pot because of a specific experience. I was going
to be a professional
ski racer and pursued professional racing. I skied a couple 125-day
seasons in northern Idaho
after college. I was racing gates every day. I never made a nickel
at professional ski racing--I
was lousy at it but I pursued it. One day, I set up a set of gates
and punched my stopwatch
and skied down the hill. I did it in 17 seconds. I went up the lift
and skied down through the
gates again and made 16 seconds. I went through the course again and
did it in 15 seconds.
The next time I got on the chairlift, a ski patrolman whipped out a
joint--that was a common
occurrence. We smoked pot up to the top of the lift and I went
through the course a fourth
time. Oh my God, I had the fastest run? It was smooth, perfect. But
then I looked at my
watch. I was thinking, 13 seconds! But it was 19 seconds! Whoa! It
was a revelation. If I did
19 and thought I was so much faster than I really was, then this is
carrying over into other
areas, too. I thought, I don't need this.

PLAYBOY: Was it the last joint?

JOHNSON: Not the last, but it broke the habit. People think they can
function just as well, but
they can't. A lot of athletes smoke pot because they can't drink and
perform. Yes, you can
smoke pot and perform--you can get away with it unless they are
testing for drugs--but it has
an impact. It has an impact on everything you do. When the Olympic
snowboarder tested
positive for marijuana, you have to think what he could have
accomplished if he hadn't been
smoking.

PLAYBOY: Maybe the pot relaxed him so he could perform as well as he
did.

JOHNSON: I don't think so. I would argue that he could be that much
better if he did no
drugs.

PLAYBOY: Is your current athletic regimen a kind of drug for you? Do
you need it to feel OK
and to get through the day?

JOHNSON: By 1987, I was pretty religious about working out and I was
more fit than at any
other time in my life. It also was the best time in my life. I saw
the connection and made a
conscious decision to be as fit as I possibly can be. I saw a
relationship between being fit and
simply feeling good. I have been that way since. I am religious
about it.

PLAYBOY: Some might say obsessive.

JOHNSON: Well, it's a way of life.

PLAYBOY: Some of what you've done sounds extreme. The Ironman races
are one thing, but
we read that you put yourself in a freezer to test your endurance to
cold.

JOHNSON: That was back in high school. One of my buddies and I bet on
how long we
could sit in a freezer to kill time while we were working at a
hamburger joint. It was a high
school thing. The other contests, like the Ironman, are about being
fit enough to accomplish
great tests. I'm in the shape to be able to climb Mt. Everest
tomorrow. I know there's the
altitude factor, but I'm in good enough shape to do that. I'm in good
enough shape to do the
Ironman every single day of the week. That's a good feeling.

PLAYBOY: Apparently you have a point system for your regimen. How
does it work?

JOHNSON: Since I was elected, I've done 80 points a week. A point in
running is a mile; in
biking, three miles; swimming, a quarter mile. I figured out the
point system after wearing a
heart monitor for a long time. Around ten minutes of crosscountry
skiing is a point. I have
points for rollerblading, downhill skiing, rock climbing, hiking and
the rest. Eighty points a
week equals about 12 a day. That is, I run the equivalent of 12 miles
a day, bike the
equivalent of 36 miles a day, or whatever.

PLAYBOY: It's an extreme regimen for most people but unheard of for
politicians, who are
known for their three-martini dinners and, at best, a round of golf.
What does it do for you?

JOHNSON: I believe you should try to find out what it is that makes
your life tick really well
and then get as much of it as you can, whether it's golf, fly-fishing,
chess, a musical
instrument, artistry. I don't push anyone else to do it, but it makes
my life work. I'm out the
door every day at 4:45 in the morning. I'm through with my workouts
by eight. Nothing gets
in the way of the workouts. Though I start earlier, I think I hold
out longer and have more
energy and stamina because of the workouts.

PLAYBOY: It has been noted that you are the nation's most fit
politician. Who is the least fit?

JOHNSON: I can think of some candidates, hut I'm not going to single
them out. Take a look
at my colleagues. You can tell. And they know.

PLAYBOY: Which politicians, especially fellow governors, do you
admire?

JOHNSON: George Bush. George Pataki from New York and Christine
Whitman from New
Jersey. I have gotten to know Jeb Bush and hold him in high regard.
I've gotten to know
ex-California governor Pete Wilson, and I like him very much. And
then there are some other
people who make me wonder how they got elected. No, I won't tell you
who.

PLAYBOY: Do you know Jesse Ventura?

JOHNSON: Yes and I sure respect him. He said something to me about
the drug thing--like
"right on, right on" and "thank you."

PLAYBOY: In general, do you believe that the Republican Party will
ever be able to leave
behind its reputation for being exclusionary?

JOHNSON: Bottom line: I think Republicans are about giving people
freedom and holding
them accountable for it. If there's a criticism about me that I love,
it's that I'm a Libertarian. If
people call me a Republican Libertarian, great. I separate myself
from the party when it wants
to legislate morality. You can't legislate morality. You lead by
example, but you can't tell
people how to live, which, ironically, is a Republican assumption. A
law against smoking
marijuana just does not work. There are other ways to try to get
people not to smoke.

PLAYBOY: Considering all the other issues you care about, how will you
feel if your legacy is
the governor who wanted to legalize drugs?

JOHNSON: It wouldn't bother me a bit to be the first politician at
this level to push for the
legalization of drugs. It will happen, whether in 80 years or 10, as
I've said. More candidates
will run on the issue of legalizing drugs. Politicians in office will
come to the same
conclusion-that what we're doing isn't working and there has to be
another way. I hope I'll be
one of many within a few years. It will come: Drugs will be legal and
we'll be able to move
on to tackle many other societal ills.